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Algorithms of Physical Wheels and Geometries of Computer RNGs

After clearly demonstrating on computer random-number-generated (RNG) roulette spins that a method yielded no better than expected results, the author of the method protested that the test results were not applicable because the spins were computer generated from algorithms, and thus, less “geometric” than spins from live, physical roulette wheels.

However, what is a physical roulette wheel but a mechanical, spinning algorithm, and what is a computer but a collection of geometrical objects?

Algorithms of Physical Wheels

A physical roulette wheel is simply an algorithm based on physical, mechanical variables: angular acceleration, angular velocity, friction, collisions, and gravity.  Newton’s Laws.  Input all the variables into the equations of motion, and you will get a precise answer.

The only reason why the results appears random to us is because we don’t know all the values of the variables precisely enough and are not able to calculate with them fast enough.   But if we did, we could predict the outcomes with 100% accuracy.  Indeed, Shannon, Thorpe, and the Eudaemonic Pie Team tried to calculate fair approximations on the spot in casinos, and they were able to beat “random” enough to win some money in the process.

Moreover, a basic demonstration in physics is to calculate a very fair prediction of where a ball will land in a roulette wheel.  It a standard lab exercise in angular dynamics.  Roulette spin results are completely deterministic, and to insist otherwise betrays a lack of understanding of basic physics.

So, to argue that a physical roulette wheel is somehow a source of more “geometric” random numbers than a computer algorithm is not consistent, because a physical wheel is but an algorithm that generates only apparent randomness.  The apparent randomness is entirely due to our lack of complete information. In fact, from a physical perspective, the live spin results of a physical roulette wheel are entirely deterministic.

Likewise, the order of cards in a deck or shoe is entirely deterministic, and they only appear random to us due to our lack of knowledge.  If someone had x-ray vision which enables him to see through the backs of the cards, the sequence of card values would not be random to him at all.

(Where a physical wheel may yield non-random results is if it has defects and tilts toward a particular region.  Or, if the dealer uses release tricks to manipulate the ball into the desired regions.  Or if the wheel is not completely balanced on its mounting.  Or the table on which it is resting is not perfectly level.  Etc.  In those cases, the results will show a clear trend and tendency, and the results won’t be characteristic of randomness.  Indeed, one can analyze results from live wheels to try to extract useful information about tendencies which arise from the physical imperfections of the wheels.)

Geometries of Computer RNGs

Likewise, computer RNGs have physical geometries. What is a computer, after all, but a collection of matter?  Silicon, copper, gold, iron, titanium, etc., all crafted together into components which have very definite and precise geometries.  The only difference is that these microprocessors consisting of  registers, transistor, resistors, capacitors, switches, traces, and a host of other electrical parts are of a scale that you can’t see with your naked eye.  But they have geometries as natural and physical as any larger-sized object such as roulette wheels.  Indeed, they have even more symmetry and balance than any large-sized object.  Even though an algorithm is generating a string of random numbers, what is executing the algorithm but beautifully geometric, micro-sized objects?

So, to argue that a computer RNG is somehow any less legitimate a source of “geometric” random numbers compared to physical roulette wheels is not consistent, because computers are composed of very real, physical objects composed of elements with definite geometries and symmetries.

Simulating Physical Nature

If, for the sake of argument, we admit the point that computer RNG cannot adequately simulate a simple, straightforward game such as roulette, then we have absolutely no hope of using RNG to simulate the incredibly more complex aspects of physical nature, such as nuclear decay rates, astrophysical collision rates, economic dynamics, climate studies, manufacturing failure rates, population mortality rates, enzyme kinetics rates, etc., etc.  Yet, in all of these areas, computer simulations have quite successfully used RNG to model the random aspects of their physical counterparts.

Perform Buffon’s Needle Experiment with physical needles or simulated ones, and the same value for pi will emerge, the more trials, the better.  Then why should physical roulette wheels yield different answers from simulated ones?

The fact is, from a mathematical perspective, it doesn’t matter where the string of numbers comes from, whether baguettes, needles, physical wheels, decks of cards, ping pong balls, many-sided die, drawn sticks, cosmic rays, electronic noise, thermal vibrations, switches in mechanical relays, transistors in computers, or registers in computer microchips: If the sequence of numbers satisfies the main characteristics of randomness, such as unpredictability, equal chance frequencies of all outcomes and between outcomes, and Gaussian distribution of event frequencies, then the results from any and all of them are mathematically equivalent on a practical level.

11 replies on “Algorithms of Physical Wheels and Geometries of Computer RNGs”

Well said Virtuoid! Written with your usual wit and wisdom.
As a Trader I’ve noticed people over the years constantly falling for the same mistake on the financial markets. They say their algo model won’t work in back-testing because “this time it’s different “. Oh to get on the other side of their trades !!! (Just bring facetious, that strategy generally doesn’t work either)

Thanks, Andrew!

Yeah, getting on the other side of their trades is just like when they try to reverse their entry/exit logic to hopefully turn a losing strategy into a winning one. If only it were that easy! 😉

(Where a physical wheel may yield non-random results is if it has defects and tilts toward a particular region. Or, if the dealer uses release tricks to manipulate the ball into the desired regions. Or if the wheel is not completely balanced on its mounting. Or the table on which it is resting is not perfectly level. Etc. In those cases, the results will show a clear trend and tendency, and the results won’t be characteristic of randomness. Indeed, one can analyze results from live wheels to try to extract useful information about tendencies which arise from the physical imperfections of the wheels.)

The above quote is actually the ONLY reasonable element of dispute. Remember the book “1 Million Random Numbers and Their Normal Deviates.” (I think I got the title correct). If, there is an aberration in the shuffle such as can be equated with an off balance wheel then one might find non-random events. (Predicting them is another matter.) The only way to provide a proof is to analyze the real world outputs. Why? Because simply stating the algorithm used in the shuffle machine is flawless is not proof.

[…]When he finally realized the results did not, he then rejected the computer’s random number generator (RNG) as being inherently inadequate for the task, because it was producing randomness via algorithms, and not behaving like a physical roulette wheel would, that the RNG was producing “algebraic randomness,” not “geometric” ones. (Whatever the difference is between algebraic and geometric randomness is, I still have no clue, as his explanations were senseless. I guess whatever is “algebraic” is what does not support his theory.) Yet, I countered him with the arguments presented in my previous post about algorithmic wheels and geometric computers, that there is no mathematical difference between random sequences from physical roulette wheels and computer RNGs, to which he was unable to adequately respond.[…]

[…] Unbelievably, after weeks of voluntarily trying to help and reason with him, the crackpot who inspired me to post “A Fire-Breathing Dragon Lives In My Garage” by Carl Sagan is now threatening legal action against me. If he does, it would be entirely frivolous and meritless. In his characteristically warped manner, he is trying to use the non-disclosure agreement (NDA) as a contract of work between us, demanding that I continue to do more computational work for him, even after he had already denounced computer simulations to be completely inadequate since they clearly proved his theory wrong! He claims I have breached the NDA by refusing to continue to work for him (all for free, I might add). Legal counsel advises me that, indeed, anyone can sue anyone else for anything in the great legal system of ours. […]

“The fact is, from a mathematical perspective, it doesn’t matter where the string of numbers comes from, whether baguettes, needles, physical wheels, decks of cards, ping pong balls, many-sided die, drawn sticks, cosmic rays, electronic noise, thermal vibrations, switches in mechanical relays, transistors in computers, or registers in computer microchips: If the sequence of numbers satisfies the main characteristics of randomness, such as unpredictability, equal chance frequencies of all outcomes and between outcomes, and Gaussian distribution of event frequencies, then the results from any and all of them are mathematically equivalent on a practical level….”

So keeping with that theory, there is no a way you can orchestrate a non random shoe from an 8 deck baccarat game no matter how you shuffle it or even if you don’t shuffle it, correct.

Not sure how you could infer that from what I wrote. You can certainly orchestrate the shoe to any desired constitution if you apply intelligence to perform the task, whether physical or computer simulated shoe. Of course, whether or not casinos actually do that as a matter of policy is another question altogether. (Personally, I have found no evidence they do, but others might disagree.)

All I’m saying is that you can’t dismiss realistically computer simulated shoes as being somehow inherently different from or less “genuine” than physically shuffled shoes. You would never be able in practice to consistently distinguish one from the other. So, you can confidently use either to test systems, and the long term results will be entirely equivocal.

Exactly what I meant. Finding different and creative ways to change up the shuffle shouldn’t affect the randomness of the game. Also, there isn’t exactly any deliberate intelligence to it, probably more like superstition to me.

It’s like saying if I blow on the Dice I have a better chance of rolling a 7. It’s akin to ‘if we shuffle it a certain way we might thwart all the long streaks that baccarat players look for.’ Amazing!

Like you said in your casino orchestration blog: it’s counter-intuitive anyways because savvy players pick up on the bias and that randomness is the best policy anyways.

Great blog.

Thanks!

What I meant by “apply intelligence to perform the task” is that in order to consistently get non-random shoe arrangements, some intelligent organizer must purposefully perform some sort of intentional manipulation on the shoe.

While not impossible, it is highly unlikely that a random shuffle without intelligent intervention will result in an ordered shoe arrangement simply due to entropy considerations.

You hit the nail on the head! I have been trying to explain that to Ellis. It’s not like they are deliberately placing every card in the same order as they would exactly like a previous Streaky or Choppy shoe and basically recreating the shoe. That I think would be the only deliberate and intelligent way to orchestrate a shuffle.

Other than that finding different and creative ways to change up the shuffle is just merely a random act like blowing on the dice which hence will still produce a random outcome.

Keep on blogging.

A piece of advice: Don’t waste your time arguing with Ellis. He is completely set in his ways and is completely oblivious to reason or evidence.

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